The Lifestyle MD
The Lifestyle MD is a Podcast for high-achieving women struggling to prioritize their health and fitness.
Delve into the wisdom and experiences shared by Dr. Angela, a dedicated wife, mom, and doctor. Explore practical tips, empowering narratives, and strategies to navigate the complexities of modern life with finesse. Whether you're striving to juggle professional success, familial responsibilities, or personal growth with your health and fitness journey, join Dr. Angela to unlock the keys to a harmonious and fulfilling lifestyle.
Learn how to set meaningful goals, manage your time effectively, and prioritize self-care, while still pouring into others. Dr. Angela and her guests empower you to redefine success on your terms, emphasizing that you don't have to sacrifice your well-being to thrive in life or your career. This podcast is your compass for navigating the challenging waters of health and self-care while staying true to your values and purpose.
Dr. Angela Andrew is board-certified in Internal Medicine, Pediatrics, and Lifestyle Medicine. She is a Primary Care Doctor, Wife, Mom, Bodybuilding Figure Pro, and Fitness Coach for Professional Women. Subscribe here and follow her on Instagram @angelalifestylemd.
The Lifestyle MD
Episode 027: From Clinical Expertise to Parenting Instincts
Extend your understanding of postpartum care for yourself, friends, family, and/or your patients.
Discover the reality of postpartum challenges faced by high-achieving women in the medical field with Dr. Michelle Haggerty from the Fourth Trimester Doc. We unravel the staggering statistics on mental health struggles like postpartum depression and elevated suicide rates among female physicians, amplifying the need for a support system beyond the traditional six-week checkup for all women. We reflect on the shift from community-supported postpartum care and advocate for a return to robust support networks to bolster maternal well-being for those balancing demanding careers.
Physician parents juggle dual roles, often struggling to reconcile their clinical expertise with their instincts as caregivers. Dr. Haggerty and I explore how embracing the parental role without the added burden of medical responsibility for one's children can lead to a more enjoyable and fulfilling parenting experience.
Join us as we emphasize the importance of identifying energy givers and takers within the home, creating a postpartum sanctuary, and the doulas' pivotal role in nurturing new parents. From safe sleep practices to integrative approaches to mental health, this episode offers a comprehensive look at how to foster healing and positivity in the postpartum period. We will challenge you to rethink support systems that benefit postpartum families, healthcare providers, and society.
For information or to provide a "fourth-trimester doctor" near you, visit https://c4tc.co/physician-directory/
Follow me on Instagram @angelalifestylemd and don't forget to SUBSCRIBE to my podcast & SHARE this episode.
we tend to want to sometimes avoid medical care. Right, we want. We're like, oh well, we can just keep them home and watch them ourselves, or we can do things that ourselves because, because we're doctors, as opposed to handing it off to somebody else and saying, no, no, I just want to be a mom.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the lifestyle MD podcast, the podcast dedicated to high achieving women who are conquering their careers while striving for total wellness. I am Dr Angela Andrews and I am thrilled to be your guide on this journey. Hello, this is Dr Angela. Welcome to the Lifestyle MD. I am so excited for this episode. We have Dr Michelle Haggerty back from the fourth trimester doc. Go ahead and say hi to our listeners. Hello, hello. So glad to be back from the fourth trimester doc. Go ahead and say hi to our listeners.
Speaker 1:Hello, hello, so glad to be here again. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, this has been a long time coming. We talked about having this episode or at least having a follow-on episode. There was a lot of really important data came out of our first talk. You shared some really important facts.
Speaker 2:I want to prep our listeners for what we're talking about by sharing a couple of statistics and then we can jump into the details of that topic. Is that okay? Love it? Yes, all right.
Speaker 2:First of all, female physicians die at a 2.5 time rate compared to the general population by suicide, and that is compared to our male counterparts. So male physicians die from suicide at 1.5 time the rate. And then, when we look at breastfeeding rates, resident physicians are more likely to discontinue breastfeeding much sooner than their original plans compared to their female physician counterparts. And then, overall, physicians just discontinue breastfeeding earlier than planned compared to the general population, and I can certainly attest to that. I was very frustrated with having to discontinue early because my supply is just gone, just absolutely gone, despite all the effort to try to maintain it.
Speaker 2:But then the other statistic that really caught me off guard big time is that residents have very high rates of postpartum depression. Again, I'm not surprised to hear this 40% compared to 11% in the general population. That's crazy. So you work with moms, you see the good, the bad and the ugly. So this is obviously something that you're very passionate about and I'm wondering is this, this kind of data, is this what got you excited? Is this something that really motivates you to start your business and start your practice?
Speaker 1:Is this something that really motivates you to start your business and start your practice? Yeah, absolutely. I think that there's so many things that happen postpartum that is just not addressed, not acknowledged, not supported in the general healthcare system. And we didn't even talk about, really just in general, the overall statistic that the US has the highest maternal mortality rate among developed countries, right, so that's a horrible statistic. And then on top of that, 65% of maternal deaths happen postpartum 65%.
Speaker 1:So we're and I think we might have talked a little bit about that in our last episode, but I mean, I just really need to emphasize that that you know, we have 10 plus visits during the pregnancy, we have 24, seven care during the birth and we're so, so, so focused on making sure that people survive through all of that. But then, postpartum, you have the one visit at the six week mark and then that's it right. And if people show up to that visit in the first place right or really get any of their needs addressed at that point, like you know, their mental health is either they're either struggling or they're not really at that point, or they're they're. Either you know they're breastfeeding and that's working, or they're not and it's too late. Really, it's too late for a lot of that. And then, on top of it, it's also too early in that it doesn't continue to provide that care long term. So, people, you know, it's up to a year postpartum that those deaths happen.
Speaker 1:So we're not addressing and acknowledging the fact that there is significant need and need for support in that full first year postpartum and not just that one six week visit. So, yeah, there's a huge need there. And then, on top of it, right, I was seeing my colleagues really struggling in residency and as an attending as well, and that's just the general population. Now we have even higher risks and more struggle in our profession. So how do we best support our colleagues who are caring for others in this space, Right? So if they're the ones caring for other people, like, and they're not going to support they need themselves, Like, how do we expect anything to happen in this in the whole healthcare?
Speaker 1:system that is really supportive of folks during that postpartum time. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then as you were talking, I was thinking, you know, there was probably a time in our history where moms had a lot more support postpartum and it went well beyond the first two weeks when everyone was around, right, it extended into that full year where you had extended family and moms and aunts and whatnot who were there to help support. And now, where our families are separated and people have these professional lives and they're very isolated, we lack a lot of that community. And I talk with Dr Carey, who is my naturopath colleague, and talk about how one of the pillars of well-being is community. And that's the piece. That's a big piece of this too, right?
Speaker 1:It's huge. It's such a huge piece. That's actually one of the things I hear the most is the feeling of isolation, feeling of loneliness, postpartum, and we shouldn't be feeling that way, like we deserve to have this team of people surrounding us, that really it's village, right, that we used to have people supporting and caring and holding and carrying us through. It doesn't shouldn't be that you're trying to figure out on your own with Google, right, like that's what people are doing in the middle of the night is just spending their their, their evenings with Google trying to, and that's not, you know, or social media, which can be. It can be sort of a blessing and a curse, because there is some connection that people get on social media, but there's also very, a lot of toxicity, a lot of mom shaming, a lot of things that come up on there that really sort of cause people to spiral, and so that individualized support for people as they're going through their unique journey is really important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's, that's fantastic. First of all, again, I'm so excited and happy that you are doing this and looking forward to sharing, toward the end, how you've expanded, which is exciting news. That means there's going to be more opportunities for more women to benefit and more moms and more who have just really need this support. Now we were going to talk about postpartum planning. Again, this is novel to me. A lot of our listeners what is postpartum planning and how do you apply that to physicians and is it is it? Do you think of it differently for physicians than you do for non-physician clients?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so I think, to start off is I say quite frequently that this planning for the birth and not postpartum is like planning for a wedding and not the marriage.
Speaker 1:So you're planning for the events, the big events, but like the meat, and that's a genius by the way is like is the postpartum time that's a marriage is actually being like, it's all the stuff that happens after right, and that is such a significant thing that we're missing that.
Speaker 1:You know, people are so, so, so focused on that big event and there's a lot of, frankly, a lot of lack of control in that space. There's way more that we can do postpartum, that we can have more control over and really have a significant impact on, if we really just take the time to set that up. So, yes, absolutely, there's on, if we really just take the time to set that up. So, yes, absolutely, I think it's really really critical. And then, as for physicians specifically, I do think that there's a little bit different of an emphasis that I specifically talk about with my physician patients, in that I think that there's sort of this level of how do we ask for support? We have a hard time as physicians for asking for support from others. We have this very type A personality where we want to sort of have that control or have this look of having being in control even if we're not right.
Speaker 1:So we look like we're in control, but we're. But we, you know things are on the inside, are sort of spiraling right, and it's very hard as well to ask for support from people that see you as sort of the referral source or the boss or whatever. So, for example, like asking support from a lactation consultant who usually refers to you to be the experts right, or from a nutritionist or from physical therapist or something that you know where they're referring to you for having the diagnosis and things right, then it can be hard to ask for that from somebody else who maybe is not in you know your sort of field and doesn't really understand our mentality.
Speaker 2:And you're also never really treated like a parent. You're never treated like the patient, you're always a physician, right, right, like even to your colleagues.
Speaker 1:Completely. And so there's this feeling like you should know, so they, so you're the way that people talk to us it be very like, very medicalized, and not sort of like, even if, like, let's say, you're a nephrologist and you're not a pediatrician, but you know like they're they're talking to you about, like you should just know these, these things that are, you know, happening to your kid, or even as a pediatrician. The other side of things I think that is not well recognized unless you're going through it yourself, is that the physician mom brain is very different from the physician brain, right, the clinician brain, and they don't play well together. They don't, they don't. There is short circuits, it there's hard wiring and stuff that happens. There's all kinds of stuff that just is so off that you know we think about the zebras, that the case that we saw 20 years ago, the you know the really scary stuff when it could just be a cold and some snot. You know it's like there's man, this is really touching home, right, right, exactly so we go.
Speaker 1:We go into like the, really we ruminate. Then it's very, very hard to differentiate between the mom brain who's trying to be like the sort of mama bear, like protection, you know, the one that's trying to think of all the things and make sure that they're doing everything that they can for their baby, and that clinician brain that like is, you know, has all the knowledge base but then is now like making this sort of short circuit.
Speaker 1:That's something that I work a lot with people on, on how do they hone into their intuition and not into the crazy, not into the um, not into the stuff that, like, is you know sort of happening, you know up in the cerebral stuff, right, and trying to come back in and what is really happening here, how, what are we really seeing? And also like that they don't have to doctor their own kids.
Speaker 1:So that's the other thing too, is that we tend to want to sometimes avoid medical care. Right, we want, we're like, oh well, we can just keep them home and watch them ourselves, or we can do things that ourselves because because we're doctors, as opposed to handing it off to somebody else and saying, no, no, I just want to be a mom, like I don't. I don't want to be, I just want to be the parents and I don't want to do any of the medical stuff and I want you to take that over. So it's one of the first things I say to people is I've got this, you don't have to do any of this Like I've. I'm taking this from you, and so you get to be mom and you get to do, you get to enjoy that piece of things and and all that stuff that goes along with it. That's challenging. That's challenging enough in itself. But let me take this, let me take that off of you, let me take that. And I see people just do this.
Speaker 2:I was just going to ask you do you get that like exhale, that drop in the shoulders? Just a clear visual sign of relief.
Speaker 1:Complete relief. And then it's just like, wow, okay, now I can, I can ask the questions, I can release some of this, I can, I can be vulnerable, right, because now I don't have to be the one doing all the things, I don't have to be the doctor and the mom and the, you know, and the and the and the right. Just get which.
Speaker 1:Mommy is enough, parenting is enough, right, like that's that is and I don't want you to be doing anything of extra stuff and in fact it just makes things more messed up because you know you're sort of thinking through things in a different way. That doesn't make sense. Really. Our brains don't really work that way in that space.
Speaker 2:That makes a lot of sense. So you mentioned, when you were talking about some of the statistics, that postpartum deaths goes out to a year. So when we're talking about postpartum planning, is this 12 months after, like? What does that typically look like?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I start with really the fourth trimester.
Speaker 1:So that first three months, I think it's really and really honestly, the first two weeks is the really critical stuff, the really critical transition of really getting things sort of on board. But yeah, I mean it really is. It goes out to a year. I'm just thinking through you know what is going back to work gonna look like. You know what is being back at work gonna look like. So there's a transition of preparing to go back to work and then there's also being back at work and with that you know, and what's your support systems there? There's a lot of things that happen in that first year.
Speaker 1:So we really want to acknowledge you know what all those sort of steps along the way for the majority of deaths come from homicide and suicide, mental health stuff, basically. So that is the sort of challenge. Is really acknowledging that. That's because that doesn't necessarily always show up in those first, in those first couple months. So, knowing that they have that support system down the line, make sure you have a therapist, make sure that if you're on medication, you have somebody that you're going to be, you know, following up with, making sure that they know that they have support systems in place that they can come back to.
Speaker 1:And for me, I'm with them forever, Like I'm with you all the way, like you are, whatever, even though we've maybe stopped our visits around three months or so. You know, I'm sort of like they graduated on and they're now seeing their pediatrician and things, anything that comes up. You come back to me like we are. I'm here for you. I've been a text message away. We've got to you know, because again it comes back to the loneliness piece. I don't ever want anybody to feel alone and that they're not being held and carried through this sort of transition, which is huge in the first year.
Speaker 2:That is huge. So if you're primarily focusing I mean if the main bulk of your attention is in that fourth trimester, it sounds like what you are also then focusing on is helping line people up with additional support because they're going to need support kind of ongoing, because if they start having more signs of depression. Are you also helping some of those support people around them identify those clues? Are you also helping some of those support people around them identify those clues? Are you empowering other folks as well and helping them to identify it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and I think the other piece of it is. The other piece we need to think about is the partner or paternal postpartum and anxiety which doesn't typically present until closer to six months. And so really it's about and then I talk about, like what are those signs and symptoms which are different from typically, different from what we classically think of as sort of the postpartum depression?
Speaker 2:So what are those signs? I'm ignorant. I'm ignorant about this, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So a lot of things I see are rage as one, like sort of pulling away, so doing doing extra work trips when usually work trips, when usually they don't usually do work trips, or spending a lot of time with friends or other people as opposed to the family, sort of trying to get away from the nuclear family, sleeping a lot more, so spending a lot of time in bed, or again sort of like that pulling away, and then you're getting very immersed in work. So where they're like working super long hours when they usually they didn't before, is those are typically what I've been seeing lately. It seems like but yeah, it's not the classical just look depressed. They don't look like necessarily sort of functioning right.
Speaker 1:They're doing their functioning working, they're doing all the things, but they're just, they're sort of pulling away from the baby and the family not bonding very well with the baby doing a lot of like stuff away from not really wanting to hold the baby, not really wanting to be involved in that stuff.
Speaker 2:So it sounds a lot like elements of postpartum depression in the in the mom right when there's that withdrawal with the draw.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's definitely withdrawal, right Right, but it looks different it looks different um, I think because the withdrawal in the birthing parent is is sort of this like almost emotional withdrawal or like the bonding withdrawal, but not like a physical withdrawal, right? So like they're not like away right, they're not like a way it's trying to yeah everything, it's all. It's almost like they're still. They're still present because they're there, right, and they're still caring for the baby and doing the things, but maybe not doing it as well, but they're at least.
Speaker 2:You know yeah you know, in the physical kind of like executing and carrying out, doing the movements going through the motions right, exactly going through the motions of the day, but just not being sort of mentally kind of looks and that and that makes sense. I can visualize how that would look different yeah, yeah wow, is there?
Speaker 2:I mean and I don't know if you have the answer to this, but are the triggers the same, like are there pre-existing underlying risk for depression or anxiety, or is there something about just the newness of this relationship and it create? Like, what is it about that that precipitates the paternal partner?
Speaker 1:Multifactorial, of course, like there's all these different things that kind of happen. But I think part of it is the sort of shift in in stress hormones and things like that, right. So they have this like sort of surge, initially in the first, you know, several months postpartum where you're just having to do all the things Right and everything's new and you're having to sort of be on right for everything, and then they go back to work, right, and then they're it's like okay, so now you're in a work setting and now you're trying to navigate this home life and this work life. So how do you, how do you navigate that? And now you've also sort of lost your partner. So, like your, your person is now somebody else's person, like so.
Speaker 1:So now they're like where, where do they fit, you know, and the baby is so reliant for the most part on the birthing parents, especially when it comes to breastfeeding or lactation, that like where, what's their role, like what is you know, where do they fit into the family? Now, when you know there's this sort of very, very connected, you know, dia, that's, that's sort of there. That hasn't been there before. You know, intimacy, right. So that's been significantly affected, right, because now maybe there's not the feeling of being touched out or the feeling of, or maybe they had a traumatic birth, or maybe there's like a lot of pelvic floor issues or whatever, and you're not quite ready to you know sort of get that sort of intimate relationship again, and so how does that look?
Speaker 1:And maybe that shifted right. So, like you know what does intimacy look like, and maybe it doesn't necessarily mean penis and vagina sex, but maybe it means some other forms of you know intimacy that doesn't. You know it's different from what it was before, and so there's a lot of shifts that happen in what their life was and now is, and so how do they sort of navigate that?
Speaker 1:I definitely think that there is, you know, there's. You know, if they have a history of depression or anxiety or issues with anger management or things like that definitely will come up right, because now, oh, and lack of sleep, of course, right, that's a huge.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, let's not forget that part. I've only been talking about sleep like a crazy amount on my social media. Let's not forget that part. I've only been talking about sleep like a crazy amount on my social media. Let's not forget that.
Speaker 1:That's just a little. Just a little massive for so many people, Right? And then, and maybe they used to work out a lot and now they're not doing that as much as anymore, or maybe they're not spending time with friends and their community that they're they're outlets before. How do you continue having an outlet?
Speaker 2:And maybe you're not happy you haven't had date nights. Exactly right, you know? Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:All the things, all of it, Because I mean the world just shifts right, Everything just-.
Speaker 2:Oh, this just really like struck me, like our youngest is six, he'll be seven next month or in two months, and I'm thinking, wow, I never really thought about yeah, I thought about all the impact on me. But wow, it impacts your partner too.
Speaker 1:Huge right. Yes, depending on the relationship. Maybe they're doing a lot of caring for you because you're recovering postpartum, and then who's caring for them?
Speaker 2:right.
Speaker 1:And there's birth trauma that happens in the partner as well. So they witness their person again going through, you know, huge like this huge traumatic event, right, and sometimes there can be on the brink of, you know, death for some, some women, as their birth. So now you're watching your partner go through this experience and you think, oh my gosh, I'm going to lose them, right. And now what is that? You know? So then they have some PTSD stuff coming up sort of later on. So it's all of these things that isn't addressed right, because everyone's so focused on the birthing person, which needs a lot of support.
Speaker 1:But also there's, you know, this other half, which is where family medicine is just so critical, right, like it's just like the whole family and the whole you know everyone plays a role and everyone is important and it needs to be acknowledged and addressed and supported in how all these shifts are happening, because then everyone thrives right.
Speaker 2:Right, oh my gosh, and that's not even talking about who don't have partners in the picture. Right, right, yes, and I mean that's a whole nother collection of challenges. I mean we could go on about that for days, completely, so you navigate this. And fourth trimester, doc, how can other doctors or how can other care providers, how can just anyone that's in their sphere help with this transition, because this is really a whole nother transition. We talked about matrescence too, but that's going to be a whole nother episode. We still need to do that one as well. I'm still excited about that. How do we support, how can other folks get you know? Step in Cause. Clearly it can't just be you right, there's gotta be other people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. So I think it comes from right. The communities from the healthcare community, the physicians and midwives and things that are caring for folks during the pregnancy and the birth. What I mean they can start by helping prepare them for postpartum. So you can start by having those discussions on what are the things that are necessary and important to support. You know that people can get set up for a successful postpartum period. So I think that's really important and we can kind of go into that a bit in a minute here.
Speaker 1:The other thing, I think is as a community, as friends and family and neighbors and things like that, if you're not necessarily one of the care, part of the care team, is we can, you know we can support people in their postpartum. So for the very first thing I talked to people about is setting up. You know their support system and people that you want to be have people surrounding you that bring in energy. So you have people in our lives that are energy givers and we have people in our lives that are like sort of energy suckers or energy takers, and we love them all. They're all severe, they're all part of our, you know, but they all have roles right and in the first couple of weeks and even up to a month postpartum. You want the people that come into your home to be the energy givers. They're the people that are sort of acknowledge what needs to be done.
Speaker 1:Oh, I see dishes in the sink, I'm going to do them, you don't need to ask. I see that you know there's laundry in the basket. I'm going to fold it. I see that I'm going to bring food.
Speaker 2:I'm going to bring nurturing food for you and I acknowledge you know and I'm not gonna ask, I'm just gonna do it, I'm just gonna do it.
Speaker 1:Right, and I'm going to sit with you and I'm gonna hold space with you and I'm gonna let you cry and we and and tell your story and you know, get things out and just be there, right.
Speaker 1:And just to support you and whatever, whatever you need, and not sort of dump all my stuff onto you and I'm not gonna ask to hold the baby right Like I'm going to. If you want me to, I will be here to do that, because then you can go and take a nap or you can take a bath or whatever.
Speaker 2:But it's not can we rent these people?
Speaker 1:Right, exactly, yes, yes, doulas, there you go, right, yes, yes, you can do this, yes, so it's that type of stuff, right, right.
Speaker 1:And then the energy takers are the ones that you know sort of come in and expect to be hosted, right, they're the ones that, like, sit on the couch and ask for some tea and want to be fed, and like they don't bring anything into the home and, in fact, take energy away, and they sort of complain and they, you know, just, you don't feel comfortable nursing or breastfeeding around them, so they make you leave the room, like all of that type of stuff which is not only there to hold the baby, right, they don't, they don't want anything else. And those are the people that you just don't want there in the first month, couple weeks, because they're just, they're not the healers and not the support system that you need at that point. You want those people to be the ones that are, you know, come over later and you know when, when you're sort of functioning more and you're able to sorry, are you having folks identify these people ahead of time, kind of like, hey, let's come up with your list.
Speaker 1:Right, Right, and as soon as I talk about it, you're like, people are like oh and they just you can tell their list, like in 30 seconds.
Speaker 1:You know, and sometimes it's in-laws, honestly, like it can be. It can be the, or the parents, um, the grandparents, in-laws, and then if they're coming from out of town or another country and they're coming to visit and they're gonna come stay with you, we talk about what that. So is it best for them to actually stay in the home, or maybe it's best that they stay, stay in the hotel down the street, so then they come in and they can leave, and they can come in and they can leave right and so you can set up those boundaries and set up expectations in advance, so that then again everyone's better off because of it, right?
Speaker 2:Well, this is so much deeper than I could have ever imagined.
Speaker 1:And that's the thing, like there is so much to it that I think we really could go really in depth with a lot of different aspects of it, because it's there's so many different pieces that really can affect that postpartum period and it's so unique to each individual Right and each individual and the family and the you know the community that surrounds them too wow so, yeah, postpartum doulas fabulous because they are.
Speaker 1:You rent them, you pay for them. They'll come in and they'll do those, all those things. They'll make meals for you, they'll take care of the older kid, they'll intuitive, please, they'll do all the things right, they'll, yeah. So so I love them.
Speaker 2:I think they're a really great part of that community of support but as soon as I mean, as soon as you mentioned that, you mentioned how, like you know, individuals will kind of know right off the top of their head. I mean, as you started talking to me, I said, oh my gosh, yeah, my mom. My mom, like she walks in, it's like dishes, like she's always doing stuff.
Speaker 1:I'm like, yes, my mom would need to come see me right, because they because they do, and when they leave, you're like when can they come back?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Like oh, that felt good for them to be here. Oh, they just felt really nurturing and loving and supportive and it's good, it's all the goodness.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:When other folks leave, it feels like it just kind of sucks the energy out and you're like, oh, we could move away with you know I could do a couple.
Speaker 2:What if someone says they don't have any energy givers that they can think of? What do you do then?
Speaker 1:I honestly think everyone has somebody in their circle.
Speaker 1:I think that there's a neighbor, maybe somebody that's not super close, but maybe he has that, that energy. They're like oh yeah, I mean we don't hang out a lot, but they definitely you know, and then so then how do you ask? Then it's about how do you ask for something from somebody that maybe you're not used to asking that from and putting yourself out there and being vulnerable and being able to do that? Maybe you absolutely don't have anybody. And then there's maybe like like it's at a postpartum doula, it would be somebody who would have come in, or a lactation consultant who kind of has that energy as well.
Speaker 1:Body workers, massage therapists you know acupuncturists tend to. Those types of folks tend to have that sort of energy, so they're the ones that can provide that for you to some healing hands. I mean, yeah, having massage postpartum is amazing because it really can release some.
Speaker 2:I never thought of that either. That's so sad. Can I have a redo?
Speaker 1:So actually.
Speaker 1:So I recommend people telling the birth story while they're getting a massage, like saying it out loud, and what's so incredible about that is your body holds the story right it holds the history of whatever that was, and so you can have like a little bit of back pain or a little bit of, you know, tension in your hip or whatever, and as that, that massage therapist is working in that spot and you're telling your story and maybe you get to a little bit of a tender point in your birth story. You release it and that releases from your body and it releases from your soul right, like it, just like you know.
Speaker 2:Oh, that totally makes sense. Well, and that that reminds me of a book that that I really love, that when the body says no, I think that's a pretty popular book now too, and it's kind of the same concept, right, or not even kind of it is.
Speaker 1:It is, it is, it's exactly it. Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness. So what are some of the other key things that you focus in on in that pre and postpartum period?
Speaker 1:Totally so. I have five pillars that I talk about. The first is nutrition. So of course we need really really good and you talk again a million years about nutrition but really hearty, warm, easily digestible foods. So you think like stews and casseroles and things that are sort of warm and mushy. So you're not your butt. So like a big salad is not what we want to do right away. Postpartum yes, that's healthy for you in general, but not postpartum. We want to make it easy for your intestines to break things down.
Speaker 1:We want everything to be really easily absorbed and we want to keep that body nice and toasty, warm. So we want to do things like soups and congees and things like that that are very highly nourishing but also like that warm and easily absorbed nutrients. A lot of variety, right. A lot of that whole rainbow. Lots of vegetables and meats If you eat meats, salmon with a good omega-3s, right. So the healthy fats and then bone broth can be really lovely as well as helping with that collagen and a lot of those nutrients. I personally love a breakfast congee, I think, like with oatmeal and pan. You can even use like different, different grains, like barley quinoa, kind of do a mixture, put some warm berries on top with a little bit of some cream or some milk and a little bit of maple syrup, and it's just oh, it's just lovely.
Speaker 1:It's just incredible so good kind of a meal to have for breakfast and then lots of snacks around, right. So a lot of high protein things I really like, like granola, or having I actually make granola for my, my patients, um, and bring that home for them. But yeah, so like with nuts and seeds and things like that that are really to sort of stick with you for a longer period and don't have those those spikes and you know sugar spikes and thinking through that. And then so you can set up things like that that are really to sort of stick with you for a longer period and don't have those those spikes and you know sugar spikes and thinking through that. And then so you can set up things like a meal train so you can tell people in advance. Like you know, these are the days that you could drop off a meal, and then I have people put a cooler out front on their front doorstep so the people don't even need to come in, you don't need to drop it off on the front cooler, send a little text message.
Speaker 1:It works great. It works for people that are making the meals and the people that receiving them, because not everyone just wants to be visiting. They just want to be able to just support and sort of move on with their, their day and things. So it's nice and easy. And, yeah, there's some really great cookbooks and things out there that have some really lovely recipes the first 40 days is one of my favorites that have a ton of recipes that are great for postpartum.
Speaker 1:Some communities actually have meal delivery services that are specific for postpartum, but otherwise, just in general, meal delivery services are great. Doing like delivery services from the grocery store, like trying to, you know, avoid having to go out, is, you know, awesome. So there's a lot of different support. And then I have people one of my favorite things is having whatever their favorite restaurants are around, printing off those menus and highlighting their favorite meals from those menus. So that then it's just. It keeps the decision-making fatigue down right. You just say, hey, I want something from that Indian restaurant or I want something from the Mexican restaurant, and then either the partner or family member or whoever can just order whatever that highlighted thing is on the menu and you already know you like it and it's great, and it just comes and you don't need to think about it any further than that.
Speaker 2:I'm going to add that just now. I mean, I think that's just a good tip in general.
Speaker 1:Right just to have, yeah, exactly, you already know what you like, so you might as well just get ordered. That's fantastic, totally, totally so, yeah, nutrition. And then, obviously, you know, staying well hydrated. So lots of fluids, electrolytes, things like that that you know sort of keep you hydrated. But and we can, yeah, I could even go like really in depth with, like you know, you think, specific nutrients magnesium, vitamin D, choline, these are all things that we really want.
Speaker 2:Are you recommending supplements or kind of like helping encourage a variety of whole foods to do that?
Speaker 1:Both actually supplements. I do recommend vitamin D supplements, magnesium supplements, keeping with like either postnatal or prenatal vitamin, postpartum, just those things up a little bit. But you know, really we want to try and be getting most of it from the food in general.
Speaker 2:So that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:All right. Next pillar.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the next pillar, so I talked about physical recovery. Next pillar yeah, the next pillar, so I talk about physical recovery. So you know the pelvic floor movement, right? How do we, how do we support that, that physical movement in that postpartum period? I really like to go by the 555 guide, so it's five days in the bed after the birth, five days around the bed, and then five days around the house and then five days around the neighborhood when are you at?
Speaker 1:And this, this is critical for physicians because we have a hard time, right. So what helps with this for the most part, for a lot of people, is, you know, thinking about like, so how do we? So our bodies are recovering, so we shouldn't be going to target a day three postpartum, right, we should be right? Yeah, exactly how many people do that? I know, I know what you're talking about, right? No, who doesn't? I didn't do that, no, but we want so we want to be sort of, yeah, recovering, and part of that is bonding with that baby and breastfeeding and getting that lactation stuff set up, and we need to be home doing that, right, and resting. And so it's really this very slow process of you know, sort of starting in the bed and moving a little bit further and moving a little bit further, and so, and when I say around the neighborhood, I mean like, just like two doors down, walking a little walk, Right, right, we let our bodies guide us. So if you're bleeding increases, then you've gone a little bit too far and now you come back, come back to the last step and you sort of stay in the last step for another day or two and then go back out. You know, take the next step again.
Speaker 1:But I think what helps for a lot of people to think about is that you're not only recovering, but your baby is being acclimated to the world and being introduced to the world, so their nervous system to slowly be introduced to the world as well, right? So going to target with, like the you know, the fluorescent lights and people and all the things is not helpful for them, right? So if we're starting in the bed and they're getting used to your body and your smell and what happens around the bed, and then they're getting used to sort of the room where you're up in a rocking chair and kind of moving around there and they're getting used to like the kitchen and the household and like new, new signs or like new, new things to see and smell and and hear. Right, if there's a dog or whatever other things moving around, you know they're just sort of slowly being introduced to like the next step of your world, right, and so it just helps them make that transition so much more smoothly than this very jarring. They came from this tiny, you know.
Speaker 2:So as you're saying this, I'm counting the days. That's like that's 20 days, right, great, okay, and I remember there being. I remember physicians coming back after two weeks great yes to work right right work like skip that whole process. I mean because you had to be doing a whole wow.
Speaker 1:Dad puts that in context well, and we also think about, we ask babies. You know, you know, as pediatricians, the health care system. We say we need to see babies at three days postpartum, or we need to see babies at five days postpartum, or we need to see, you know, and again at one week and two weeks. And that's again interrupting that whole thing right, right.
Speaker 1:Again we're coming into a space with fluorescent, the physical recovery stuff. So, thinking about the pelvic floor, how do we support the? There's a tear, you know? How do we support the pelvic floor and recovery, you know? Again back to the body massage things like that, just sort of help with allowing that body to recover and what that all looks like.
Speaker 1:And then the third thing I talked about is the mental health aspect, and so you know, we talked a little bit about that as far as making sure if you have a therapist, having them on hand, like hey, I'm giving birth a couple weeks, like just let me know, like you know, maybe a virtual appointment to kind of just check in all the things around, like sleep especially. So how do we encourage adequate sleep for both partners if there is a partner involved as well? So I really encourage people to get four hours, like four or four and a half hours stretch of uninterrupted sleep. That means that the partner is on for that timeframe or the support person is on for that timeframe and nobody interrupts you. You are down, eye mask, earplugs, in a different room sleeping. If you can protect four hours every 24 hour period for each person, it's life changing as far as being able to, because it's a full sleep cycle. You feel like you're rested.
Speaker 1:You don't feel like you're sort of moving around zombie land as opposed to waking up every both people, waking up every two to two and a half hours or three hours. That's just sort of you know around the clock.
Speaker 2:So speaking along along those terms. So when you're breastfeeding and baby is sleeping in the room, I mean that can be disruptive for both partners, right? Potentially not every partner wakes up. But what do you recommend in those situations? You? Would you encourage maybe separating into different rooms to protect the sleep of one person?
Speaker 1:for that four-hour stretch I did. I definitely recommend either having a partner take the baby in a different room and caring for them in a different room, or just going and sleeping in like a guest room or on the couch or something that's away from where that baby's sleeping.
Speaker 1:I actually have the partner sleep, so if the crib is on, you know, one side of the bed and the partner sleep next to the baby on that side of the bed and then the birthing person on the other side, because our, our sense of hearing is just like so amplified that's true every little you know are like breathing differently or the kicks or whatever, and all of a sudden we're awake, right yes and so if you was separated a bit, then it allows for the baby actually to wait legitimately, wake up, and then you're, then you're sort of waking up after that.
Speaker 1:so it wait legitimately, wake up, and then you're, then you're sort of waking up after that. So it gives a little bit of that space, so you're not hearing all the little little teeny, teeny things that just make.
Speaker 2:I swear. All these little little nuggets are like revolutionary. How come this isn't just common knowledge? This is, this is golden.
Speaker 1:We don't go through it right, and by the time we go through it we're in the midst of this. We can't think of these things right, and so we are so in the thick of it. So if we're not planning in advance to prepare for this time and be ready for it, our brains and our capacity to be able to come up with problem solving and solutions is out the window. Like we can't do it at that point. So it does seem intuitive when you're talking about it, but it really needs to be a very intentional, you know, thought process and planning, so that then you have these resources and these, these sort of tips and things that you can go to easily.
Speaker 2:You've got your map already there, exactly Right, so you don't have to think about it as you're driving, so to speak.
Speaker 1:You can just execute turn right here. Right, exactly, exactly. So yeah, it's a huge thing, I think all the little things and that's when people are connecting with me and when I'm working with them postpartum we can ask these. I can ask these very little like how are you sleeping, where is everyone sleeping? What is that looking like? Especially when I'm in the home, I can walk in and I can see exactly what the setup is and then we can make those adjustments that sort of fit with that and then sleeping.
Speaker 1:I think one of the critical things I think that is so important about talking about sleep is co-sleeping legitimately bed sharing, because 85% of people will bed share at some point, even if they don't plan. Then you're setting yourself up in a bed that is not ready for it, or people are so avoiding the bed and they're so exhausted that they're sleeping in a reclining chair or they're sleeping in a on the couch or they're sleeping somewhere else. It's completely super, super dangerous compared to the bed. So let's talk about how do we prepare the bed. So when it happens that you're so exhausted and baby's so fussy and you just need to lay down how does that look and what do we do to start a prep for that?
Speaker 1:So there's something called the safe sleep seven that talks through how do you prepare a bed for the safest way possible to have a baby in the bed with you. Or I also recommend taking the mattress out of the crib, putting it on the floor, having the baby lay on the mattress on the floor, you kind of wrapping yourself around it no blankets, no pillows, nothing and then when you fall asleep you can roll over away from the crib mattress and the baby's just laying on the crib mattress on their own space. So there's ways of doing it that are safer than being like falling asleep on a rocking chair with, you know, the baby on your chest or whatever, which is what most people will end up doing.
Speaker 1:It's similar to me as like abstinence at only a sex education, like yeah this is you can't be so strict about something saying never, never, never, never, never, because when it happens, then it's not safe, right, Then they're not using protection.
Speaker 1:You don't know what to do and you're stuck. So let's talk about how to again. So, if and when that happens, you are in the best case scenario and the best safe scenario for both you and your baby. So then you can sort of survive and then figure out what the next steps are. And how do you? How to get the support you need to to make sure you're getting better sleep or whatever it is oh, that's great, I love.
Speaker 2:I love that you touched on that, because that's a statistic that people don't often think about the actual how many people actually end up co-sleeping unintentionally Exactly, it happens.
Speaker 1:People talk about it, then they don't come and they don't tell their nutrition. Like they're asking oh, where does the baby sleep? Well, most of the time it sleeps in the crib, but like when those times come when they're fussy or colicky or whatever, and what happens then, and then people will talk about so they don't get the support and the guidance on how to do it as safely as possible how to navigate that.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. What was that again that you refer to safe sleep? Seven?
Speaker 1:Seven yeah, the Leche League had is the ones that came up. The guidance around that and has to do with like, if you are, you want to be breastfeeding and not formula feeding. You want to be. There's's no pillows and blankets around, no alcohol, no drugs, no smoking what else? Babies lay on their backs so they're not on their tummies, no soft sleep surface, so it's got to be a firm surface, which is why I think the floor can be a great place. So, yeah, so those are some of the guidelines around that, but I think it's really critical to sort of be aware of and set it up for a good that's really great.
Speaker 2:Thank you for sharing that, yeah absolutely. Anything else around mental health that helps folks.
Speaker 1:Being integrative medicine I use, like herbs and supplements and things like acupuncture, and what I think is so critical is that the only thing that's going to help people is a thing that resonates with them. So if it feels like medication, feels like it's going to resonate with them, great, let's use. Let's use the meds, but if they're like, no way is meds going to help me, there's no way they're going to take it appropriately or take it regularly. And if they resonate better with energy medicine, for example, then Reiki is going to be the way to go right. So again, it comes back to that that unique, the person that's in front of you. How do we treat this person in front of us to best support them, so then they have the best, best option to be able to thrive in whatever situation that they're sort of dealing with. And so I think that's critical as far as, like you know, we're dealing with mental health, like how do we approach people and then how do we meet them where they're at and what, what modalities work best for them?
Speaker 2:that makes sense really, and then?
Speaker 1:so what are we at?
Speaker 1:we're so nutrition before we talked about some recovery, mental health, the support system. So we're back to like the tribe, right? So the people that you want in your corner, um, and so that's the other piece, that the other sort of pillar of this is the, the support people and um, and getting lactation consultants, um, or breastfeeding and lactation medicine specialists If you're planning on breastfeeding, having them, having their numbers and everything available ready to go so you know who to contact the other mental health stuff that you know if you use acupuncture, having acupuncturists available, massage therapist if you're having friends or family coming, coming in and dropping food off, or whatever it is. So how, thinking through all the people that could be supportive for you and how do you reach out to them and how does that sort of all look? So that's the visitor part and the support system and the tribe, and then the final thing is your environment.
Speaker 1:We want to set our environment up for healing and for a space of goodness, and so if you're I don't know if you're familiar with the term hygge, but it's a Danish term for coziness, so it's everything you think of that's cozy, so like a warm fireplace or like soft socks and a big snuggly blanket and silky pajamas and you know whatever it is and all the warm, nourishing foods and the teas and the smells like candles. And so when you're setting up your postpartum environment I like to call it my postpartum sanctuary, so this, if you're coming into this space where you're going to be spending a lot of time 20 days, right, it's a lot of time and so how do you set up the space to feel really good and really yummy, right, and so so, like that is like bringing in plants, bringing in nature, bringing in even if it's pictures of plants in nature, that's totally fine. Bringing your favorite vacation, or like if you have older children, like they're, they're, they're coloring and they're like little drawings and things like that around, having photos of your family and friends everywhere, like we're really we we're talking about revamping your bedroom, right and then having, yeah, snuggly socks and, like you know, nice smells. You know things like whether it be candles or whatever that's sort of available, whether you use aromatherapy, maybe having you know are you going to be watching TV, is it something that you know so you want to set up, like you know what's, where's the TV sitting and are you gonna be watching like shows, so maybe set those up in Netflix or Hulu or whatever and have everything like sort of ready, like you can add favorite lists, right. So again, taking away that decision fatigue, you want to be watching shows that are like 20 minutes, 25 minutes, like the sitcom kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:I really love Schitt's Creek. I think it's like perfect. You laugh a little bit, you're not like feeling like you're on a cliffhanger. I do not recommend things like a Game of Thrones, for example. You want, right, but it's like, but when you're scrolling you want to be able to like just do something really quickly, friends, you know, like the Seinfeld, whatever, something that like gives you a little bit of a giggle and a laugh and then you can fall back asleep again right afterwards as you're nursing. And then, or maybe you do audio books and so like you have all that set up, or maybe you do podcasts or podcasts, so you know the podcast if you're ready for that you can just sit there and have just a nice little space.
Speaker 1:People always buy babies like these really soft little blankets. You know which are so sweet. But I recommend buying or buying for yourself or having on your registry or whatever a huge, super snuggly blanket for you. This is your postpartum blanket. This is your great idea for a snuggle.
Speaker 1:You know snuggle blanket, and what's really cool about it is that you know you have this very special tactile thing that you have during this time that you just keeps you nice and snugly warm and then you can continue to use it. And so, for example, my kids use their own individual postpartum blankets in their beds now, like this it's there, I was just imagining that then they can become your kids making when they're ready for a bigger one.
Speaker 2:I just absolutely love that. Oh my goodness. They thought oh, this was our this is my.
Speaker 1:You know, this is your blanket, no, it's my blanket. And now you get to snuggle with them when you're putting them to bed with this like blanket that was so special during that really early time and just back those memories. You want to be bringing back the goodness, the good memories, the good feelings that happened postpartum. It doesn't have to be this scary, awful thing, it can be just. You know, it's really snuggly, beautiful, yummy space that you know, if we're, if we set it up right, it can be really lovely. So yeah, so that's, that's sort of the overall, but you know we can go into depth with any of them, but it's, I think they there is so much to be said about, there's so much to go into on. How do we prep for this time? That can be really just. You know, so rich and so you know, have provided so much guidance for people that they don't have to go in and just sort of like you know trying to figure it all out.
Speaker 2:I mean and you've just given us essentially just a real sneak peek at, you know, talked about these pillars and imagine having all of that support during that fourth trimester and what that would feel like and look like. I mean just a little bit that we talked about A lot of it is things I would have never, even now, would not have considered or thought of, and I'm looking forward to sharing some of this going forward with friends, family and patients. But, even more importantly, how do people find you and how do people find people like you, because I know you're not here. Well, in Michigan, speaking of which, I'm in Michigan, you're in Minnesota.
Speaker 1:Minnesota, yeah.
Speaker 2:So doulas? We know that doulas exist. I mean, could someone get similar support?
Speaker 1:They can get a lot of the support like not the medical support but like the nutrition and social and and, like you know, physical kind of support from that aspect Also, like they they recognize when there's things like they can screen for, like postpartum depression, anxiety, and they can sort of be, you know, like sort of that stop for like helping with, you know finding referrals of who you need.
Speaker 1:Some of them have extra training and body work so they can do some body work on you. Some of them have extra training and lact work so they can do some body work on you. Some of them have extra training in lactation so they can help with that. They may not be a lactation consultant but they may have like at least some basic training on how to get sort of good latch right. But then they're also like connected with the community, the birthing community, on how to who to reach out with, so who should reach out for. So yeah, I think that they're a great resource. I just really I can't say enough good things about having somebody like that in the home to support for sure.
Speaker 2:And I've got in my primary care practice. I have a couple of women who are in my practice, who are doulas and have their own doula practice, and I've learned a lot from talking with them about their experiences Interesting. I have a patient who's also interested in becoming a death doula, which is something that that's so cool Great, I know, isn't it? Oh, needed, so needed, so needed, so needed. Just learning from the.
Speaker 2:I mean, the unfortunate thing is not everyone has access right, and so when you and I started talking offline, I mean first of all your practice. Your reach is growing. You've added physicians to the practice. You said four new physicians have joined. Congratulations, that's fantastic, thank you. Yeah, it's so exciting. It's so exciting and first of all, that means that there's an interest and there's a need we know that and for more people to get it. You're kind of looking at some other avenues to increase access. And then I was thinking, okay, you mentioned earlier research and as we were talking, I was wondering, okay, is there research to show that we can decrease these rates of the postpartum depression and suicide?
Speaker 1:Yeah, not solid research. As far as this postpartum support, there is some decent research internationally, so in Europe, for example, with some of their home visiting services and things that do help with maternal mental health, not in the US US and not not coming from the physician, you know sort of physician support I can say anecdotally, 100% it helps, which is where I want to go. Next is where how do we? You know, I want to develop some studies that really look at how do we like, look at this model and what true impact is, and then how to then get payers to pay for it, because pay for it to insurance to really be able to, to, or employers, for example.
Speaker 1:Um another avenue that that can really be a huge aspect, you know, if you get your employer to pay for some of these that's true, because that could be another benefit.
Speaker 1:It could be you can have a postpartum benefit exactly, exactly and honestly, it's cheaper than you know some of the the. You know you think you get back to work, we can again the mental health side of things, the lactation, all these things. When things are going better postpartum, then it's so much easier to transition back into the workspace and they have better retention. They have better ability to recruit people.
Speaker 2:you know families, so it's a huge benefit for employers to, and not to mention the fact that it doesn't become one of those things. Where you're not, you're avoiding the conversation about ooh, if I have children, is my job protected, or can I have that conversation? Yeah, you know. Wow, you an employer who's having the forethought to say, hey, look, we know that this is important. We know this is challenging. Let us support you. You're already signaling to people that you're valued and, yes, having children and raising your family and being healthy through the process is a priority.
Speaker 1:And it's important. It's important for our economy, it's important for our society, our economy, our children, everybody.
Speaker 1:Exactly Everybody. Everybody wins when mothers or brothers thrive. So really, you know, I think there's a lot of ways that we could then utilize this data to then support getting better support for more folks. If you're in Minnesota, we're sort of we're all over the Twin Cities, and then also in Rochester, which is sort of near the Mayo campus, and then I'm also co-executive director and co-founder of a nonprofit called Center for Fourth Trimester Care and we have a directory on our website that has physicians across the country who are doing similar work in various states. So that's another resource if you are looking for a physician who would come into your home and support you this way.
Speaker 1:We do have several physicians across the country that and it's expanding so more and more we're trying to train and support more physicians and doing and being able to get out of the system and do this work that they love Honestly, like it's. So, you know, having long visits, having being connected. This is why a lot of us went into medicine, and so it's a cure for burnout. Honestly, for the physician side of things, you know, I feel energized. At the end of the day, I don't feel burnt out, I feel excited. It's awesome.
Speaker 2:I can so relate to that, and I am. I'm so grateful that you answered the calling to pursue your passion and that you are an example for so many other physicians out there, and especially women physicians. There's more than one way.
Speaker 1:Yes, right, right, definitely more, yes, yes, we.
Speaker 2:So I still appreciate that and you know and I go the sentiment of what we went into this for being able to spend time and have relationships. I you know, when I'm talking with folks I find myself just telling people who are interested in my practice I love what I do in my primary care practice so much more now than I ever did. It is rejuvenated me to a level that I could not have predicted or imagined.
Speaker 1:Yes, a big message, I think, just for physicians as a whole like we don't have to be stuck in the system, we can build. Build what we dream, build what we want, build what we think that we would. If you want it, if you want it for yourself, you're into those other people that want that too. What does that look like? What could it be? And um, trying to encourage people to just dream, and then what happens? You know, I love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I am really hopeful that we can have another discussion about matrescence. We didn't talk about it all this time, but it came up in our first podcast episode and I was very intrigued, yeah, so I want to know more about that, so I'll come with some questions ready for that one. Um, any final thoughts that you want to leave our listeners with?
Speaker 1:well, I think. I think it comes down to again coming back to that, that planning aspect like let's, you know, let's really prepare ourselves and our patients for success, and how do we do that?
Speaker 1:And you know, even just giving you don't have to give this whole talk that I just did right now but even nuggets of information, or referring them to talks like this you know important to just really transform that postpartum period so it doesn't have to be so scary for folks and it can be really this a very lovely, wonderful transition time that can you know that they're learning about this little one and expanding their family and learning more about themselves and all the things. So it's amazing, it's been really incredible.
Speaker 2:Well, I think you hit the nail on the nose. One of the big reasons that I started this podcast is to share information that I wanted to share broadly and something I can refer people back to, because there's things that we often talk about over and over again, or there's things that we want to expand upon, and there's just, even with long hour visits, there's just never enough time for everything. So I get to share this with people, you get to share this people. We get to share this with so many other individuals and so, yes, refer people back to podcast episodes like this. It's a great resource. And then I'm going to also make sure I reference the website again in this podcast episode in the notes, so that people know how to find resources near them.
Speaker 1:Awesome Great.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Well, thank you again so much for joining me, dr Michelle Haggerty. This has been another great talk. I love it. Thank you so much for having me. Yes, looking forward to next time. Take care, yes, take care. This has been another episode of the Lifestyle MD Special. Thank you to Lou Moussa for the show theme music created with free photography and makeup by Janae for the cover photo. And if you enjoyed this podcast and you haven't already, please subscribe today and share with another woman doctor who may benefit. You may also follow me on Instagram at Angela Lifestyle MD. I am Dr Angela. Thank you for joining me today.